Bitrate and FPS if you have no subscription

[Edinburgh_lad1]

Hi

Looking for your experience of pro 2's bitrate and frame rate during daytime and at nighttime, but only if you have *no* paid subscription. If you pay for subscription, please don't post your results here. Thank you.

Format:

Daytime: bitrate in kbps/Mbps at frame rate

Nighttime: as above

[StephenB]

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@Edinburgh_lad1 wrote:

Daytime: bitrate in kbps/Mbps at frame rate

Nighttime: as above

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Arlo's encoding uses both variable bitrate and variable frame rate, so the results will depend on how much is changing in the recording.  It would be best if you check several recordings, and either report a range or an average.

A good tool for getting this information is MediaInfoXP:

• https://www.videohelp.com/software/MediaInfoXP

[Edinburgh_lad1]

Looking for the lower threshold 

[StephenB]

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@Edinburgh_lad1 wrote:

Looking for the lower threshold 

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Then I'd suggest having folks report the number of samples, and the range for frame rate and bitrate.  Then you can get the lower threshold, but also some additional info that could be helpful in understanding the results.

FWIW, If nothing is changing in the scene, then these values could be quite low.  Arlo's compression structure is to encode the next frame by "fixing up" the previous frame - compressing the motion-compensated difference.  Periodically they encode an I-frame (which does not depend on any previous frames).  So if nothing is changing (other than noise), the floor won't tell you anything useful (and could well be the same as the floor if you have a subscription).

[Edinburgh_lad1]

Cheers. If nothing is changing in the scene, there should be no motion recording. A poor argument, I'm afraid. If there is a cat, Arlo should still deliver at 600kbps @ 24fps. I'm afraid I'm  finding statements like this (as some others, too) vague:

"Note: If you have a legacy Arlo camera (Arlo Wire-Free (VMC3030), Arlo Pro, Arlo Pro 2, Arlo Q, Arlo Q Plus, or Arlo Baby) that includes free cloud storage, the bit rate is reduced. If you purchase an Arlo service plan, the camera records in higher quality."

So, I'm looking to find out if my camera (more specifically HD and Pro 2) delivers as is, or whether for it to deliver, I need a subscription plan.

Forgive me, Stephen, but I can never work out your affiliation to Arlo. You do have a lot of inside knowledge. I know you don't work for them, but the question is: did you used to? You're a dark horse 😜

[Edinburgh_lad1]

By the way, there's an android version of media info (and possibly apple one, too) which makes checking videos easier.

[StephenB]

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@Edinburgh_lad1 wrote:

Cheers. If nothing is changing in the scene, there should be no motion recording. A poor argument, I'm afraid. If there is a cat, Arlo should still deliver at 600kbps @ 24fps. I'm afraid I'm  finding statements like this (as some others, too) vague:

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1. Variable frame rate (VFR) simply means that if nothing has really changed from the previous captured frame, then the frame can be dropped.  
2. Variable bit rate (VBR) is similar - if there are a lot of changes happening in the scene, then the bit rate is increased, if there is little or no change the bit rate is reduced.  One specific form of VBR is  is called "constant quality", where the bit rate changes as needed to preserve a constant quality level.

You are assuming a constant bitrate/constant frame rate encoding mode is the ideal.  That is commonly used, but a well-implemented VFR/VBR encoding will generate smaller files at the same quality level. 

Though VBR is easier to do well when you aren't doing real-time encoding.  For example, 2-pass encoding lets you sort out where the bits are actually needed on the first pass, and then you can do the real encoding on the second pass. 

In any event, the techniques Arlo is using results in bitrates and frame rates that vary, depending on what is being recorded. 

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@Edinburgh_lad1 wrote:

Forgive me, Stephen, but I can never work out your affiliation to Arlo. You do have a lot of inside knowledge. I know you don't work for them, but the question is: did you used to? You're a dark horse 😜

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I have never worked for Arlo (or Netgear).  Professionally I have extensive experience with real time video, and have engaged  in various standards activities - including standardization of video compression algorithms.  That includes the two video compression algorithms that Arlo is currently using.  

My comments here are grounded in that experience - I don't have inside information on exactly what Arlo is doing, but I have looked at the bitrates and frame rates of quite of few of their recordings. 

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@Edinburgh_lad1 wrote:

"Note: If you have a legacy Arlo camera (Arlo Wire-Free (VMC3030), Arlo Pro, Arlo Pro 2, Arlo Q, Arlo Q Plus, or Arlo Baby) that includes free cloud storage, the bit rate is reduced. If you purchase an Arlo service plan, the camera records in higher quality."

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Yes.  That's not something I've tried to measure, since I do have a subscription.  IMO the bit rate is too low even if you have a subscription.  I think most of the various complaints here saying the 4K (or 2k) video is not really 4K (or 2K) are due to the low bit rate.  Modern compression algorithms tend to make the video blurrier as the bit rate is reduced (older algorithms tended to make it look blocky).  

As I've frequently said, I wish there was an option to raise the bitrates in exchange for shorter retention.  If it were up to me, I'd also make that an option for folks with no subscription (perhaps 3 days of recording at 2x the bitrate).

[Edinburgh_lad1]

I must say I was very impressed with your knowledge and now it's clear it comes from the wealth of experience. Obviously Arlo could take your suggestions into account, but I've noticed a new trend in the times of AI and YouTube: a disregard for one's knowledge and experience, and I don't mean what would be represented by academic discussion, but rather a blatant disregard for both as a result if arrogance and inexperience. I'm digressing, though.

So, I wonder if the variable bit rate/frame rate, whichever is applicable, is applied to moving objects, as they appear distinctly grainy, or grainier, in my videos, with non-moving objects being sharp, and if the subscription removes that inconvenience. 

Most companies are aware of the competition and improve their products and services to be more competitive - look at ISPs, for example, or mobile phone companies, but Arlo seems to be the opposite: reducing the quality etc.

[DannyBearAgain]

I would pronounce that the quality of pro2 recordings have  diminished by as much as arlo’s support service. Not value for the money.

Car number plates are a good example, when I first started using the cameras you could easily read them at 25ft, now you can’t even when parked in the driveway.

You would be better off spending the subscription on a infrared spotlight to improve the night vision quality.

[Edinburgh_lad1]

Thank you @DannyBearAgain 

Do you have an old recording to check its technical details to compare to? It'd be very helpful to have that. Also, are you referring to the quality being dropped when one has or doesn't have a subscription, or both. 

[Edinburgh_lad1]

@DannyBearAgain @So, I've checked the manual for pro 2 and it says there that the 'best video' mode has a bit rate of 600 kbps, whereas mine, when I checked a number of recordings, deliver at just above 400. It then talks about increasing and decreasing bit rate (and frame rate), but this is dependant on the bandwidth and the amount of buffer available. So, this suggests to me that as a minimum, the bit rate should be 600 in the best video mode, but if your internet connection is poor, then it can drop down, but not otherwise. I don't think that's acceptable that they lower the bit rate if the manual says something else

Can those of you who have no subscription please check yours and report your findings on here?

Thank you.

[jguerdat]

I can't be sure but that manual is very old and may not be accurate anymore. Firmware updates and new procedures may well have changed things compared to what once was.

[Edinburgh_lad1]

That's the whole point of that, no? Here in Europe, you can't just make changes like that afterwards, I.e. once you bought a product. It's against the law.

So, if you bought a pro 2 and the manual said that it'd deliver at 600kbps, then it needs to deliver at that. You can make it better, i.e. 700kbps, but not worse.

Otherwise, all companies would otherwise be doing such unfair practices, akin to bait-and-switch. For example, if your mobile operator offers free minutes and free texts, as well as 2GB of data, they can't just change that mid contract.

[StephenB]

FWIW, the section you are quoting covers managing upstream bandwidth generally, and doesn't actually say anything specifically about the recording bit rate.

It also says that

• "Each setting starts with a particular bit rate and frame rate" and 
• "Depending on the available bandwidth and how much of the buffer is full, the Arlo Pro 2 Wire-Free system either increases the bit rate or decreases the bit rate and frame rate. "

Even if you take the position that the manual establishes a service contract, I think it is a stretch to say this particular section is a guarantee that you will get 600 fps / 24 fps recordings.  Just my technical opinion - I am not a lawyer.

That said, there certainly can be value in gathering the information you requested in the beginning of this discussion thread.

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@Edinburgh_lad1 wrote:

Here in Europe, you can't just make changes like that afterwards, I.e. once you bought a product. It's against the law.

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Consumer law is complicated and varies by country.  Conversations on legal topics here generally don't lead anywhere useful.

[Edinburgh_lad1]

"FWIW, the section you are quoting covers managing upstream bandwidth generally, and doesn't actually say anything specifically about the recording bit rate" 

Not sure where you're getting that interpretation from. 

"Even if you take the position that the manual establishes a service contract, I think it is a stretch to say this particular section is a guarantee that you will get 600 fps / 24 fps recordings. Just my technical opinion - I am not a lawyer"

Here the writing on the box served a 'contract', though I don't know the outcome of this class action suit:

https://www.classaction.org/news/arlo-technologies-falsely-advertised-that-security-camera-cloud-sto...

The point is: you can't say something will do this or that, and then drop the ball because it doesn't suit your business model anymore. 

[StephenB]

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@Edinburgh_lad1 wrote:

"FWIW, the section you are quoting covers managing upstream bandwidth generally, and doesn't actually say anything specifically about the recording bit rate" 

Not sure where you're getting that interpretation from. 

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Reading the text of the manual - both what it says, and what it doesn't say. 

The section is titled "Manage bandwidth for streaming".  The word "recording" does not appear in the section anywhere.  

The text also does not make any clear QoS guarantees.  "Each setting starts with a particular bit rate and
frame rate"  and later on the section goes on to say that the camera might decrease the bit rate and frame rate from that starting point.

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@Edinburgh_lad1 wrote:

The point is: you can't say something will do this or that, and then drop the ball because it doesn't suit your business model anymore. 

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FWIW, the class action in your link was voluntarily dismissed in March of 2023.  It became moot when Arlo reversed their decision to drop free 7-day cloud storage for the legacy cameras.  IMO the basis of that case was quite different, since free cloud recording was widely advertised, and was on the box, in the manual, and on the data sheet.    

I have no idea whether Arlo had the legal right to reduce the cloud features for the legacy cameras by discontinuing the free 7-day storage for the legacy cameras in the US or not.  The court never decided that question in the case you cite.  Arlo's rights would also depend on the terms of service in the click-through agreement that was shown when people created their Arlo accounts.

That said, IMO continuing the 7-day cloud storage was the right thing to do.